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Yes. ( 5 months ago by lukeev)
Yes.
My beef with ... ( 5 months ago by lukeev)
My beef with chomsky exactly. He is a supreme master of pseudo-intellectual vagueness. He reminds me of Saruman from the LOTRs book, with his hypnotic voice a smokescreen for deception. He'd so be lured by the Ring!
" ... ( 5 months ago by D4Shawn)
"pseudo-intellectual vagueness" You hit the nail on the head!
Why would they do ... ( 5 months ago by DeflocculatedDentist)
Why would they do that, though?
Array ( 5 months ago by UnhealthySalad)
They want to...
Why would they want to? IDK, I was merely pointing out that theoritically it was possible and trying to make the point that people should be able to choose how they live.
Is it a rational ... ( 4 months ago by KenCat1337)
Is it a rational decision? Fuck no.
PART 1: the problem ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
PART 1: the problem with a factory owned and ran by an owner for his own profit and which employs laborers to do the work that begets its good's market value is that, absent an arbitrating outside coercive force (such as a government), the factory is inevitably going to come under significant policy control by the laborers. in fact the more laborers an owner of capital employs, the more power he turns over to them... since the land and property are both worthless without their productivity.
PART 2: the reason ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
PART 2: the reason that the land and capital are worthless without their productivity is obvious enough: if work ceases, production ceases. and without production, there can be no profit via selling. thus, the legitimate threat of strike gives the workers leverage over wage negotiations (if they choose to organize - and in a capitalist society in which money is the value by which needs are purchased, we can be certain that they're going to.) naturally, if workers organize to keep wages high...
That's really a ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
That's really a matter of property rights (what system of property rights is recognized in the community/society in question). You could just as easily say that the laborers are useless without the capital goods (acquired by the employer by investing his/her own capital). Either point is pointless. What matters is what voluntary arrangements people agree upon. I don't believe that the cost of protecting property can be legitimately externalized however.
PART 3: ...then the ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
PART 3: ...then the owner is going to have to settle for a lesser profit than he was previously making, since other competitors in his industry will fare better in the marketplace if he raises prices. and if the union continues to press for higher wages, they will always receive them if the owner decides that this factory is, in the long run, in his best interest. if he decides to sell, it will be worth less than it was than when he acquired it. that is, the LAND and CAPITAL will be worth less.
Higher wages mean ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
Higher wages mean higher costs of production (higher prices). Workers are also consumers (so making more money is pointless if it just raises prices). It's all relative. That is why minimum wage laws have no positive effect (unless you consider a surplus of labor [unemployment]) positive. There's no such thing as an objectively "right" price (for labor or anything else). Price is what people are willing to pay for something. Period.
I would agree with ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
I would agree with this last part. You're just describing actual market pressures that exist naturally. As long as there's no coercion involved, I've no problem with collective bargaining and price/wage competition. Workers however generally earn their marginal revenue product. If they earned more than that, it would be more cost effective to fire them.
"You could just as ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
"You could just as easily say that the laborers are useless without the capital goods" not at all. labor is always essential for human society. since people require food, shelter, and so forth to live (and even more to thrive), there are natural economic incentives for certain types of behavior: namely, making it possible to fulfill these basic needs...
...the land is a ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
...the land is a given, but it's useless without the labor required to reap its benefits. thus there's a fundamental difference in land/capital as opposed to labor as a commodity. "Workers however generally earn their marginal revenue product. If they earned more than that, it would be more cost effective to fire them." You might fire them, sure, but then you have to find other workers to take their place. and quickly! because if they're unionized, firing them is not in your best interest.
...and plus, ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
...and plus, without labor, production stops. and thus, profits decrease. which reinforces my point that it's labor that is most fundamental to economic activity.
"there are natural ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
"there are natural economic incentives for certain types of behavior" I agree, and that is why things such as trade, media of exchange, division of labor, and property arise naturally in the market. I'm not saying that there's only one way to do things, but there are very good reasons why they are often done in certain ways (involving the above mention factors).
"firing them is not ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
"firing them is not in your best interest" Paying an employee more than their marginal revenue product would be the same exact thing as just giving them money for free. While there is such a thing as charity, a charity does not generate wealth and is not sustainable by itself. Money/wealth/goods don't just grow on trees. Nothing is free, and unemployment occurs when wage exceeds marginal revenue product (unless the business just wants to go out of business).
"labor that is most ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
"labor that is most fundamental to economic activity." I don't think that statement has any meaning. Everybody is a producer, everybody is a consumer. Economic interactions are just trades. A trade requires two parties who value what the other party has more than what they have. To say that one party is "more important" than the other is nonsensical.
i don't disagree ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
i don't disagree with anything you've stated here. but a "marginal revenue" is freely determined by the individuals in the exchange. thus, only the owners and laborers will reach an agreement based on their negotiating power, the value of the produced goods in the marketplace, and perhaps other factors. but what i'm asserting is that you can't fire an entire organized labor union unless you have workers to replace them... otherwise, production ceases...
i'm not saying that ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
i'm not saying that any part is "more important" than another. i'm saying that work is inherently more valuable than land (or capital - which is another story.) both land and capital require work to be put to good use. now, an owner can surely do the work himself, but if he wishes to expand his market, he will require someone else to do the labor so that he may speculate, acquire capital, etc. enter: my previously elaborated scenario.
"economic ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
"economic interactions are just trades" i might want to address this statement, but i must first ask: do you differentiate economic interactions from other types of social interactions? or do you believe that every decision an individual makes can ultimately be conceived as an economic decision?
Good question. I'm ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
Good question. I'm not sure there's any clear cut objective answer to that. Personally, I would probably differentiate social and economic interactions. I'm sure there's some overlap there too. I also think that a lot of things are economic in nature without people realizing it. I also think that economics can act as a fairly good metaphor for social interactions. So... I think it's fairly subjective, but I would tend to separate the two (at least at some level). I wouldn't call sex "business".
I think you get ... ( 3 months ago by D4Shawn)
I think you get into very dangerous territory when you try to apply objective attributes to value. For example, land is generally more scarce than labor. So I'd say it's impossible for you to say that person X is going to value labor more than land. If labor is more plentiful than land, then land is generally going to be valued more (subjectively) by individuals. It also depends on what the owner plans for the land, or needs the labor for.
land is more scarce ... ( 3 months ago by daydreamset)
land is more scarce now, but there was a time in history when this wasn't the case at all. there were less people (thus, less history) and more unexplored territory (thus, more land.) and this wide-open geographic world is really where i'm trying to frame my hypothesis (since the world today has a known history [with copious amounts of coercion to account for] and begs even more questions as to how it could relate to a possibly free society.)




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